Comments for How hard is it to learn programming?

Comment from Mark J on 2011-11-19

2011-11-19T22:00:11Z

When I went on an interview for my first programming job right out of school, the interviewer asked me what I could program. In my cocky overconfidence, I answered. Anything, as long as I get the specs. The interviewer told me, that anybody out of school should be able do that but what you need to learn is how to give the users what they need even if they doesn't know exactly what they want.
That stuck with me for years , and through experience I learned that when it comes to programming, at least creating programs with a user interface, knowing the needs of the business you are working with or knowing how the user will interact with your programs can be just as, or possibly even more important than knowing how to code.

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Comment from Michael on 2011-11-19

2011-11-19T19:39:56Z

It is very easy to learn the basics but very hard to learn the complexities and become productive. Just because you know computers you do not know programming.

How to learn it...jump in there is no other way!

You need to like math and have learned it as a child well as programming is based on math. Really if your math is poor choose another career your not cut out for programming! Most programmers enjoy math and physics a great deal. If your one of them you will like it as you can take your math/physics and animate it into life in a way a polynomial never can.

You can get away with dodgy scripting (ahhum PHP script kids) and it works but to do it right you need to know math as that is where data structures and algorithms originated. Those are difficult to learn without math if not impossiable. You need the math background or the books after chapter ten are unredable.

There is also MANY specialities in programming and it is NOT one subject or ONE LANGUAGE this makes it even harder. Some people may work on web pages and others desktops and others again server admin to name only a few...so many areas!!!

It is a licence to print money (either by selling or making your work more productive) even if it takes 5 years to code it.

The trick BTW is to learn the basics then become familiar with libraries and a framework for your language (you will NEVER learn all languages) then start looking at real world examples in open source software. Don't be scared just do it.

The biggest problem with teaching programming to people is they fear it like many fear math. I suggest those people choose another path in life.

Programming may sound cool but it is very slow and takes a lot of design before you even work on code...it is not cool it is a grind at best and at worst stops moving for weeks while problems are solved. It is not like matrix it is sitting in debuggers for weeks on end lol.

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Comment from fred jones on 2011-10-20

2011-10-20T11:47:45Z

well i think programming is a course in which majority of the skills you learn are from outside the module being it in a college or a university.

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Comment from Rudi on 2010-11-10

2010-11-10T10:04:55Z

School shouldn't teach you a programming language. They should teach you concepts. In such detail that you really really get it - it's like the concepts become part of your genes. To do that you need to practise, a lot. So, you need a programming language so they/you have to pick one (and later more as generally there is not one language that has all concepts you might encounter later). It is best to start practising using a language that helps you as much as possible to do the right thing and prevents you from doing the wrong thing as much as possible.
Something else you need to do is to read and analyse as much source code as you can get your hands on. Yes, there will be going "bad" code through your hands but that's ok. You'll learn to recognize it and how to do it better.

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Comment from Glenn P. on 2010-11-02

2010-11-02T09:32:56Z

Hey, I still program in BASIC on my Commodore 128! :)

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Comment from Frank on 2010-10-27

2010-10-27T14:15:47Z

I am one of the "dinosaurs" of computer programming (my first college level programming language was FORTRAN in 1965). During the first part of the class I was totally lost, but managed to get it right by the end of the semester. My eyes really opened wide when I took an assembly language programming course - with some machine language instructions sprinkled in - and I really began to understand programming. By learning how the computer works I began to understand the logic on which higher level programming languages were built. I would say if you don't get it after 2-3 college level programming courses then you need to make a course correction and change majors.

Fortran was also my first programming language - assembly language ("Compass", on the CDC mainframe) was #2. I've strongly advocated a good familiarity with assembly language as being invaluable to understanding just what the software you're writing really does.

27-Oct-2010

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Comment from Gary Pace on 2010-10-26

2010-10-27T00:07:05Z

�How hard is it to learn programming?�

Hmmmm � this is a question that begs for context.

Leo�s response was excellent.

The subsequent respondents have contributed from their experience, focusing basically on how to begin to think about and communicate with computers. Much of what I read is reminiscent of the state of the profession during my graduate days in Computer Science at the U of Illinois in the early 1970s. However, having just retired from a 33-year career in the Silicon Valley Aerospace industry, and having kept up on local hiring practices for software engineers, I can attest that the question is incomplete and the answers very limited.

School � yes � study maths and computer science. The most important math course you will ever take is algebra (exceptions to be noted below), so learn it well. If you are in a BS curriculum, you likely will have to take calculus and differential equations as well, but, again, algebra is the most important math personally or professionally for you to learn. A first course in logic is very helpful re organizing one�s thoughts and the expression thereof. Learn how computer hardware operates, how software operating systems operate, and how software programs operate in the environment of OS on HW. Learn a programming language, better yet, two or three. If you have difficulty in any of these courses, do not enjoy them or cannot at least earn a B grade, likely computer programming is not your milieu. You should be able fairly quickly to determine if programming is or is not �for you.�

Now, you have a fundamental understanding of computers and how to command them. At this point, you are a clever amateur and are prepared for self amusement, not for a career. What you have learned thus far is not even the tools of computer science, merely the most basic understanding of the fundamentals.

At this juncture, you graduate with a BS (4 year) or possibly an AS (2 years) degree and you need to get serious about your software career.

Very few general programmers are hired these days. Even though OJT will be provided to some extent by your employer, you will likely be hired into a specialty niche, such as Windows development, satellite communication, operating system development, database interfacing, microprocessor control, game development, realtime systems, etc. If you come to the party with only basic skills, you will be that last one seated at the table � if there is room at all. This is where you need to time travel and whisper in the ear of your earlier self what to study that will appeal to your employer in lieu of prior experience and firmly launch you on your way.

You will not be asked to design astrophysics software, but you might find a job implementing and testing the design for the same developed by an astrophysicist. If your interests lie along these lines, then you had better study and do well in advanced maths and physics while in school. Game software development might require the same, but realtime system software and database interface software development will not require the heavy science/math load, but you had better learn database languages and try for experience with a heavy-duty database management system. Companies such as Lockheed, Cisco, Oracle etc., typically focus on unix-based systems and applications; consumer product companies usually implement on MS Windows or MAC platforms though and companies in one of these environments are frequently unimpressed with experience in the other environment. Whole new application areas are opening up vis a vis smart phones � if you can place a couple of Apps in the online store, it will look good on your resume for seeking employment at consumer product companies.

Congratulations: you have been hired, enjoy the work and workplace and have had a few years of OJT and experience, both in SW development and in teamwork, a big change for most folks. You will have begun working closely with a more experienced employee, had your work quality evaluated in Peer Reviews, and learned how to operate the �Company Way.� If you are fortunate, your first job out of school will be software maintenance, allowing you to evaluate and learn the work of others as well as the design and operation of your product; likely, direction here will be provided by �problem� reports. Or you may go directly to software development. In either case, you may have been given detailed software specifications as text or graphics, higher level requirements or just a general statement of desirement, depending on your company culture and the requirements of the ultimate customer, if you are developing other than a consumer product. You now have several options important to your future to consider. Do you 1) continue on; 2) continue on but ask for more design responsibility as opposed to just implementing others� designs; 3) ask for assignment to a new project as a developer or as a designer; 4) leave the company for more money and a similar job or for a different but related job? I won�t explore these or other options, but career considerations include OJT, growth of responsibility, increase of remuneration, satisfaction, stress, hours and a clear path forward. What can you demonstrate on your resume to make career / responsibility changes palatable?

The two most important questions to answer, now that you understand software development in the real world, are

1) do you want to focus on development, implementing other peoples designs, or do you want to focus on designs, possibly surrendering programming time? I have personally experienced those who just want to code forever and those who only want to design and would slit their wrists if they then had to implement their own design, much less someone else�s design. Most I have met love to code during their youth, then move increasingly into design as they age. Your career will have prepared you for logic/control design, but you will require science / math / accounting/ security / etc / etc training for specialty design areas. In fact, many folks enter from school directly into design areas and acquire OJT and continuing education in those areas without ever being expected to write code. Few companies expect a single person to be both a software expert and a subject matter expert, at least not without additional training.

2) do you wish to remain a designer or implementer or do you wish to move into technical management, eventually giving up all personal responsibility for designing, coding or testing software? If so, ask about team lead / group lead possibilities and be prepared for a whole new world of schedule, budget and personnel changes as well as crisis management � and you had better learn how to make the most of meetings and endure working with those not as savvy as you, but frequently several rungs higher up the ladder than you. Even though you are no longer a practicing software engineer, you will need to maintain your skills do that you can evaluate the proposals and work of others as well as chart and direct the group�s / project�s course.

In both cases above, be very frank with your reviewer when defining your annual goals or with the job recruiter / interviewer.

�How hard is it to learn programming?� -- Not terribly difficult, but programming (coding) is not computer science nor is it computer software engineering. Best be sure you are really asking the critical question.

Best wishes for as rewarding career as mine has been from software engineer to team lead to software development manager on many interesting and different projects.

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Comment from Pete B on 2010-10-26

2010-10-26T21:33:14Z

There's some very good advice posted. I am a maths graduate who started as a programmer, and am now a project manager. All of this has been in business (application systems), and I can say that I haven't used any of my maths for any of it. (This may not be true for other areas of programming, like writing operating systems.)

there are some generic skills required
- logical thinking
- being able to get along with other people
- being able to organise your work.

On a technical front, I would advise covering an Object Oriented language (/ approach) at college - there are some doubts whether non OO based programmers can easily pick up OO concepts.
Knowledge / experience of an 'agile' approach (/ SCRUM / other buzzwords) will also help, certainly in the UK.

Having said all that, it is very true that much business programming work is now being sent to India and other lower cost countries, so programming careers in the West may not last long unless you will move into systems / business analysis, or project management.

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Comment from JohnC3 on 2010-10-26

2010-10-26T21:10:02Z

My first experience was as an amateur on a Commodore PET. I began by studying machine language. Pretty soon I had print-dumped the whole OS in assembler, and worked my way through it, and although I got stuck at a few points hardware-related, I KNEW that machine and how BASIC worked! I then did the same on a Z80 m/c, sat back and glowed with self-satisfaction. When I worked with COBOL, I felt "it's just the same, only more lines of code".
Then along came Windows.
Still, I feel that if you can get down to seeing the one-bit difference between JMPleft and JMPright (joking!) in terms of a bagatelle board (does anyone else remember those from the carnival?), then the magic is reduced to simple complexity - if you see what I mean!

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Comment from Lutz Pansegrau on 2010-10-26

2010-10-26T19:21:05Z

Thanks to Leo and to all those who commended on this topic. I'm not a programmer, I am an engineer from the hardware development side, retired now for 15 years. We developed those systems which needed to be programmed bit-wise, entering zero's and one's via switches, pushing buttons either to enter a command word or a data word. That way we, on one side had the means of testing our constructs, otherwise providing programming structures/ideas for programmers.

I was one of the lucky who started almost from the very beginning, learning by doing, getting the logic behind it.

As the computer performance increased a need for a new programming style became neccessary, the Assembler language was invented with which feeding the machine with progamming code became easier and with it a new kind of logic thinking.

Still the language was too machine oriented. Programmer were looking for an even easier way to built a progam. A human like language, Basic, was the next step and afterwards so many other different solutions.

Problem now-a-days is that eveybody who intends to be a programmer is sitting on top of a huge amount of knowledge accumulated in the years and actually don't know from where to start off. We are condemmed to inherit a lot of knowledge via our school and studying years yet, we hardly being forced to learn and exercise how to think in a logical manner. Most of our logic thinking is derived from trial and error.

And so is programming.

Problem is, these new languages are still often far from being understandable, the Syntax is for a newcomer like a language from an other world. Now put that all into a logial concept and make it work. Trial and (a lot of) error.

I have an example here at home, the student comes from a rural school, studying at the University of Cape Town, only with accumulated knowledge in his brain, is forced to learn the "Python" programming language, a concept which is supposed to be an easy one to learn. Result - almost impossible - neither the lecturer nor me were even close to plant an understanding of the logical concept.

As some of you are proposing: put the guy into cold water and let him swim. He probably will loose all of its fun and throw the towel.

Since I'm from the hardware side and know the interaction of the main parts of a computer I'm of the opinion: everybody who likes to start off with programming should learn - either by himself or at a school - the basic understanding of the way a computer works, how the components are being utilized and a proper, easy to understand language, which would be "Basic". This would be a straight forward apporach how to logically think for the purpose of programming. Once one understand how that "new world" works can dive into the realm of programming in higher languages and be probably happy for the rest of his life.

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Comment from Jim de Graff on 2010-10-26

2010-10-26T18:22:04Z

For a first language I would strongly recommend Python. The language allows you to try as you go (interactive shell). There are many tutorials available online and there is a large user community available to answer questions. I have over 30 years experience with FORTRAN, C, C++, APL, PL/1, Visual Basic and Java as well as many flavours of assembler. If asked to teach a beginner's programming class I would definitely choose Python. It is also free and supported on the three big platforms.

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Comment from Shadow on 2010-08-30

2010-08-30T22:07:02Z

C# is the future honestly!

I'm one of those people who embraces MS and change, I can't stand imperfection.

Most complaints regarding language hurdles revolve around the languages themselves. Either we ourselves are so technically inapt or there is a slight possibility that something so highly regarded and written by man is in fact not as perfect as it should be. There is some logic to that logic wouldn't you agree?

Finally what are computers? Just ones and zeros, we seem to play favoritism on languages and their structures yet forget the most basic fundamental thing of all. All languages are imperfect until we see the next evolution in computer technology. There won't be much in the way of difference from one language to the next, its more a question of perception and skill. Assembly is the real deal if you have the drive and the next 60 years to shave off.

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Comment from Ivan on 2010-05-14

2010-05-14T11:30:35Z

This is my first time that I came to your site and I must say that I am pleasant surprised. Great, I mean really great article Leo. I am in programming for almost 11 years and everything what you have said here is absolutely true. And Yes, logic is the most important thing here. Even if you have problems with logical thinking in beginning of programming it can be developed through bloody practice. To conclude, no broken mouses and keyboards, lack of hitting your head into the wall, throwing chairs and that kind of stuff, no real programmer. "If you can take the pain, don't play the game."

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Comment from Rahul on 2010-03-27

2010-03-27T13:00:38Z

Its very easy to learn Programming. I have found an excellent blog which teaches you C Programming start from the basics.
learnc-online.blogspot.com

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Comment from Pete Pete on 2010-02-13

2010-02-13T16:03:02Z

Your quote "is it something you really love to do?" is the a great advice.

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Comment from Don on 2009-05-16

2009-05-17T06:35:12Z

hey leo, this helped me alot! i was having a tough time between choosing to switch to programming or stick with my current course(computer engineering) but this showed me which path to take.

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Comment from Cameron on 2009-03-02

2009-03-03T00:12:49Z

Im in High School now (sophmore) and i already took Visual Basic (its pretty simple) and i am currently in C++ (its not that hard) (as of math i have only taken algebra 1-2 and Geometry) People are telling me to learn Java and C++ so i will be trying to learn Java here soon!

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Comment from Mewtwo on 2008-05-31

2008-05-31T17:41:01Z

I dont really leave comments unless my heart's touched by the contents. Leo , you are one of the best advice giver there ever existed . Keep up the great work :)

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Comment from sunday on 2008-01-28

2008-01-28T18:32:06Z

pls mr. leo i want to be a computer programming specifically on oracle and java, so how do i starte? i would be grateful if you assist me, thanks.

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Comment from JohnE on 2007-10-29

2007-10-29T15:53:19Z

Before you commit yourself to a programming career, research the market in your area and find out what skills are in demand and, more importantly, how much they pay. Programming has recently become a much more globalised industry, with lots of major western firms outsourcing their programming work to India, Singapore, Taiwan, Korea and China, all countries that are turning out large numbers of highly technically literate programmers who are prepared to work for significantly lower wages than Western graduates would find acceptable. As Ken B says, a class can teach you the basics but you will have to be prepared to spend many hundreds, even thousands, of hours sat at your computer with textbook and programming exercises before you achieve a marketable level of competance. If you are looking for any reward other than the satisfaction of the job itself, you might consider looking elsewhere.

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Comment from Patricia Van Dusseldorp on 2007-10-29

2007-10-29T15:53:12Z

Experience - that's the BIG score for anyone moving into a computerized technology today because it changes daily! There's 1 year's experience 40 times and there's 40 years of constant learning experiences. Having been in Telecommunications for 40 years, through times spent at the 'cord-board' as an 'operator or central' before there was such a thing as 'direct dial' much less cell phones, up through being on the bleeding edge of 'broadband' to the masses wired and wireless has been a wild ride but experience I've always learned from and continue to learn on a daily basis. It's that constant questioning that keeps your mind and your job satisfaction sharp, fun, and rewarding. Am I a programmer? Not exactly, but I sure do know how to make advanced telecommunications devices perform at their peak. All those devices are just big, medium, small and micro-computers, and dumber than anyone can imagine.

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Comment from Gord Campbell on 2007-10-26

2007-10-27T01:38:24Z

I got a B. Sc. in math in the early '60s. The most useful course I took was a half-course on logic offered by the philosophy department! The course covered three words: "and," "or" and "not."

I learned programming on-the-job at IBM, and the logic was always the easiest part.

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Comment from Hector Torres on 2007-10-22

2007-10-22T22:02:55Z

Thanks Leo for answering my question! I will move forward with my current goal of earning a BS in Computer Science. After reading all you had to say, I think I'd enjoy programming. I think I am a very "logical" person, which is one of the reason I actuallly ENJOY math and have had success in it. Thanks for your time!

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Comment from Ken B on 2007-10-22

2007-10-22T21:46:40Z

You waited until college to start programming? :-)

I think that one of the best ways to learn programming is "just do it". Pick up a book on the language (asking a Usenet group for the particular language, such as comp.lang.c, for a good "intro to programming" book for that language will help narrow the field), sit down at a keyboard, and follow along by doing the exercises.

I started that way with a book called "Basic BASIC" back around 1971 or '72 at the tender age of 10, and I never looked back. (The book is actually still available on places like Amazon. ASIN B000UG34YI.)

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